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HMS Victory - History in the making Options
Paul
#1 Posted : 13 May 2010 15:19:38

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Location: Waterlooville, Portsmouth. The home of HMS Victory.
88 Years of HMS Victory.


I found this bit of blog.............Interesting
willz
#2 Posted : 15 May 2010 18:24:35

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What a brilliant photo of victory in 1922 with high bulwarks all the way round and showing the middle 7th gun port from the rear is just a gun port.
Now I'm sure I read somewhere that victory lay untouched in moorings for 110 years before being towed to dry dock, that means she was in that state in the photo in 1812 just 7 years after Trafalgar, its all a bit confusing isn't it.
kenny j
#3 Posted : 26 May 2010 17:28:29

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Nice one Paul ,I will visit some time soon i hope.
ozzey1989
#4 Posted : 07 June 2010 14:32:27

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i went to see the hms victory myself the other week for the first time what an amazing work of art and design would not of liked to be on the other end of the cannons lol all hundred f them at once omg
ozzey1989
#5 Posted : 07 June 2010 14:33:28

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AND I SUGGEST ANYONE GOES AND SEES IT NOT TO EXPENSIVE EITHER
Dontshootme
#6 Posted : 07 June 2010 17:30:29

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I visited Victory last week & was amazed to find out that not even the experts can agree on wether there was an entry port at the time of Trafalgar,apparently most have decided there wasn't but no-one really knows for sure,according to one of the guides its one of the most avidly discussed issues behind closed doors about the restoration.
Rob Nolli Illigitimi Carborundum!!!
Current Builds:HMS Victory,SV Thermopylae
willz
#7 Posted : 07 June 2010 18:29:36

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well thank you very much for clearing that up dontshootme, now mikeT can stop looking at victory through the blinkered eyes of some committee, it really is as simple as no one knows????
Dontshootme
#8 Posted : 07 June 2010 20:12:00

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Oh no...I forgot all about the "Great Debate"..sorry guys if i've opened old wounds.
Rob Nolli Illigitimi Carborundum!!!
Current Builds:HMS Victory,SV Thermopylae
Mike Turpin
#9 Posted : 07 June 2010 21:34:53

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willz wrote:
well thank you very much for clearing that up dontshootme, now mikeT can stop looking at victory through the blinkered eyes of some committee, it really is as simple as no one knows????



Since you insist in re-opening the argument in such an un-necessarily personal way, I will draw your attention to a e-mail I recently received from Jeremy Michell
Manager, Historic Photographs and Ship Plans at the National Maritime Museum.

In it he says:

Dear Mr Turpin,

Thank you for the e-mail.

There are no surviving plans for the 1803 refit, which has provided an interesting challenge for the current on-going restoration of HMS Victory.

Victory is likely to have had entry ports at the time. The plans of ships of the same type (First Rates) built during the time of her refit show entry ports (e.g. Dreadnought (1801)), implying that it was common practice.

I recommend two books for you to look at, which may assist with your work.

McGowan, Alan: HMS Victory : her construction, career and restoration (Chatham Publishing, 1999)
Bugler, Arthur, HMS Victory : building, restoration and repair (HMSO, London, 1966)



I have been fortunate in obtaining a copy of McGowans book last weekend from E-bay.

On the basis of the best evidence available he is quite happy to show the entry ports on the relevant plans in the book. There were a lot of changes made to Victory in her 1815 re-fit, including the more modern (at the time) rounded bows which are a feature of some of the photos seen in earlier posts.

There is no reference to Entry ports being added in that re-fit which supports the view that they were already there.

You have your view and I happen to accept the views of established naval historians and experts who have published an opinion different to yours, I would hope you might respect people for having an alternative view without making fatuous comments about blinkered committees.

It is said that those who resort to personal insult are those who have lost their argument.

Mike T
budgie
#10 Posted : 07 June 2010 22:03:15

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Blink Hi Mike reading ure post seems to me you feel a bit peeved

I am interested in your input mainly cos i am too lazy to do the research myself to build a historicaly accurate model
i personally will be just looking to end up with an eye pleasing model(hopefully)

Being new to forums i find that text written can be interpretted wrongly by the reader and offence can be taken when none was actualy intended

Crying i took humbridge myself reading between the lines of a post (2+2=5) & spat my dummy out the pram
got it back now tho lol

Hope this does not affect your input to the forum as you do discover interesting things to share & open up a debate

good stuff
snowtiger
#11 Posted : 07 June 2010 22:47:18

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I love historical facts ....or even a debate over "what was and what was not"....but that only is good when the two lads are ready to agree to disagree....when one gets beligerent and personal ...thats the time for the other guy to walk away...respect kept...BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin
willz
#12 Posted : 08 June 2010 01:03:25

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There is nothing personall in this in any way what so ever, and i`m sorry if you take it that way, I already agreed to disagree the last time we crossed swords on the matter without any reply from you, mmmmmmm. You seem to be extremely competitive on your beliefs and take is as an attack when something is said to contradict you, anyhow I`ve read the email you received from Jeremy Michell and its nice to know he agrees with me and that no one knows if they were there or not.
There was no surviving drawings from her 2003 refit is an interesting point, in affect just takes all the drawings we have completely out of the equation, this makes this so much simpler. It now seems the only concrete evidence we have is the ever returning 1805 block model lol.
Every single bit of evidence I can find suggests that they simply weren't there i.e. several paintings of artists alive at the time, the heller model (which is the most accurate commercial model ever made of her) now heller is a French model maker so they would have drawings and sketches of her at Trafalgar, dontshootme asked the guide on the victory and they agree with me that no ones knows but more think that they weren` t than were, and now mike I`ve got you, I'm sure if their was any proof that they were their you would have found it , and thats enough cross references for me to believe that they weren't there, and yet still no one knows. BTW it was dontshootme who opened this up and not me, and again you see it as an argument when I do not.


All I'm saying is that no one knows, It seems a bit impossible for even me to lose that so called argument

If the "blinkered committee" upsets you that much I`ll retract it, and say that I use the less blinkered approach of cross references, ie i am not blinkered into thinking they were there and thats that, I am prepared to accept the debate one way or the other

So are we going to agree to disagree .
willz
#13 Posted : 08 June 2010 01:12:17

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Dontshootme wrote:
I visited Victory last week & was amazed to find out that not even the experts can agree on wether there was an entry port at the time of Trafalgar,apparently most have decided there wasn't but no-one really knows for sure,according to one of the guides its one of the most avidly discussed issues behind closed doors about the restoration.



this is dontshootme`s research and i for one believe he went on board the ol vic and asked these questions, now everyone has their own brain and it is just a debate, so on that we must also draw our own conclusions. But i must add "but no-one really knows for sure" is all i ever said about the subject and it does seem more people agree with me.
Trawler
#14 Posted : 08 June 2010 09:29:59

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willz wrote:
There is nothing personall in this in any way what so ever, and i`m sorry if you take it that way, I already agreed to disagree the last time we crossed swords on the matter without any reply from you, mmmmmmm. You seem to be extremely competitive on your beliefs and take is as an attack when something is said to contradict you, anyhow I`ve read the email you received from Jeremy Michell and its nice to know he agrees with me and that no one knows if they were there or not.
There was no surviving drawings from her 2003 refit is an interesting point, in affect just takes all the drawings we have completely out of the equation, this makes this so much simpler. It now seems the only concrete evidence we have is the ever returning 1805 block model lol.
Every single bit of evidence I can find suggests that they simply weren't there i.e. several paintings of artists alive at the time, the heller model (which is the most accurate commercial model ever made of her) now heller is a French model maker so they would have drawings and sketches of her at Trafalgar, dontshootme asked the guide on the victory and they agree with me that no ones knows but more think that they weren` t than were, and now mike I`ve got you, I'm sure if their was any proof that they were their you would have found it , and thats enough cross references for me to believe that they weren't there, and yet still no one knows. BTW it was dontshootme who opened this up and not me, and again you see it as an argument when I do not.


All I'm saying is that no one knows, It seems a bit impossible for even me to lose that so called argument

If the "blinkered committee" upsets you that much I`ll retract it, and say that I use the less blinkered approach of cross references, ie i am not blinkered into thinking they were there and thats that, I am prepared to accept the debate one way or the other

So are we going to agree to disagree .


Actually you're very wrong in saying Heller make the most accurate commercial Victory kit on the market, Jotika/Caldercraft hold the title for the most accurate commercial kit of the 1805 Victory. It could be that Heller make the most accurate plastic kit of the Victory, but its far from being the most accurate Victory kit on the market.

Here's Jotika's statement about their kit, "After more than two years of extensive research and development, using information and sources previously unavailable, this is the most historically accurate, highly detailed kit of Victory in her Trafalgar condition available. Our model is very different to other manufacturers, and the amendments are the result of our own research verified by Mr. Peter Goodwin, and further research provided by Mr. Goodwin.
Mr. Goodwin is the Keeper and Curator of H.M.S. Victory in Portsmouth and is currently heading the project, researching Victory's true Trafalgar configuration."

greywolf
#15 Posted : 08 June 2010 14:47:14

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The thread in the link below might be of some use, I draw your attention in particular to page 2, where someone has kindly posted sketches made by such notable artistic luminaries as Turner etc.

http://modelshipworld.co...ight=heller+hms+victory

The question of the plumes on the stern is addressed as is the question of the entry ports as depicted or not! by the various artists of the time.

Blue Ensign seems very knowledgable is he our very own Mike Turpin, if so well done on some excellent research.
willz
#16 Posted : 08 June 2010 18:21:43

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Trawler wrote:
willz wrote:
There is nothing personall in this in any way what so ever, and i`m sorry if you take it that way, I already agreed to disagree the last time we crossed swords on the matter without any reply from you, mmmmmmm. You seem to be extremely competitive on your beliefs and take is as an attack when something is said to contradict you, anyhow I`ve read the email you received from Jeremy Michell and its nice to know he agrees with me and that no one knows if they were there or not.
There was no surviving drawings from her 2003 refit is an interesting point, in affect just takes all the drawings we have completely out of the equation, this makes this so much simpler. It now seems the only concrete evidence we have is the ever returning 1805 block model lol.
Every single bit of evidence I can find suggests that they simply weren't there i.e. several paintings of artists alive at the time, the heller model (which is the most accurate commercial model ever made of her) now heller is a French model maker so they would have drawings and sketches of her at Trafalgar, dontshootme asked the guide on the victory and they agree with me that no ones knows but more think that they weren` t than were, and now mike I`ve got you, I'm sure if their was any proof that they were their you would have found it , and thats enough cross references for me to believe that they weren't there, and yet still no one knows. BTW it was dontshootme who opened this up and not me, and again you see it as an argument when I do not.


All I'm saying is that no one knows, It seems a bit impossible for even me to lose that so called argument

If the "blinkered committee" upsets you that much I`ll retract it, and say that I use the less blinkered approach of cross references, ie i am not blinkered into thinking they were there and thats that, I am prepared to accept the debate one way or the other

So are we going to agree to disagree .


Actually you're very wrong in saying Heller make the most accurate commercial Victory kit on the market, Jotika/Caldercraft hold the title for the most accurate commercial kit of the 1805 Victory. It could be that Heller make the most accurate plastic kit of the Victory, but its far from being the most accurate Victory kit on the market.

Here's Jotika's statement about their kit, "After more than two years of extensive research and development, using information and sources previously unavailable, this is the most historically accurate, highly detailed kit of Victory in her Trafalgar condition available. Our model is very different to other manufacturers, and the amendments are the result of our own research verified by Mr. Peter Goodwin, and further research provided by Mr. Goodwin.
Mr. Goodwin is the Keeper and Curator of H.M.S. Victory in Portsmouth and is currently heading the project, researching Victory's true Trafalgar configuration."




That's a good point trawler, I`ll take the heller out of the equation, that still leaves all the paintings of artists who were alive at the time, the guide of victory that dontshootme asked. When the ol vic was towed into dry dock in 1922 she didn`t have them, every single photo before her restoration she didn`t have them, so all I'm saying is that there is not a scrap of evidence to say that they were there, but there`s plenty to say that they weren`t even though its in paintings and a block model, all the great debate was ever about was the simple fact that no one knows, whats needed is some new evidence to show up somewhere but until it does it will remain like I`ve always said a grey area.
As for the jokita victory, I must agree its a very fine kit, I must congratulate you on your research, the jokita kit has the shoulder high forecastle bulwarks that she had in her Trafalgar state, and it is that fact alone that puts it up on its own as historically correct, (even more correct than the real one) but alas some find that impossible to accept
I read a lot of members research and appreciate there efforts, and like to research myself, find it very interesting, and everybody's input in a forum whether it be historical or technique in modelling or painting or anything is always welcomed and appreciated even though I might not always share their views. But I've discovered on this forum especially when I posted that the ol vic had the shoulder high forecastle bulwarks on at Trafalgar, I was jumped upon and ridiculed, but that's OK because I know it to be historically correct, I dont share everyone's views but who does and who should we are all individuals, and I can guarantee that everyone's model will turn out differently just as it should.
I have been too busy to keep up with the forum of late so I might not be up to speed as it were, but I am being very careful about what I post, don't want any members to be concerned about me ruining peoples models again lol
Trawler
#17 Posted : 08 June 2010 18:34:54

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The simply fact is that there are lots of things about Victory which may never be confirmed, and is it really worth loosing sleep over?
willz
#18 Posted : 08 June 2010 18:57:10

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Trawler wrote:
The simply fact is that there are lots of things about Victory which may never be confirmed, and is it really worth loosing sleep over?


i agree trawler its just a debate
Mike Turpin
#19 Posted : 08 June 2010 21:46:39

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Willz

I am more than happy to agree to disagree with your arguments.

In answer to your point Trawler, nobody as far as I'm aware is 'loosing' sleep over the debate surrounding Victory. Some of us enjoy an exchange of ideas re Victory's history, if you are not in that category, fair enough there is plenty more on this forum to keep everyone amused!

I find it difficult to sustain a discussion with Willz when he appears only to accept evidence to support his conclusions based on some less than reliable evidence. Particularly the paintings. For instance, in one of the postings linked by Greywolf, mention is made of paintings reproduced in McGowan's book. One of those paintings is by W Clarkson Stanfield and is of Victory being towed into Gibraltar shortly after Trafalgar. The point is made in the posting that no entry port is shown. I have a copy of the book and when you look at the painting, it is true there is no entry port BUT the painting also depicts Victory as having a total of ten gun ports along the middle deck. Do we now conclude that Victory had less than 100 guns in total?? Of course not, artists of that period, including Turner and Constable in particular, usually painted pictures to achieve an effect not photographic accuracy.

Willz also says there is no evidence of entry ports on the photographs prior to 1922, I have revisited those he posted himself and my eyes say different.

Referring to Jeremy Mitchell what he actually said was
'Victory is likely to have had entry ports at the time.'

Whilst agreeing with Willz in as far as definitive evidence re: 1803 re-fit is missing, he must allow others to come to a conclusion based on different evidence to his if he wants to agree to disagree.

Mike T
captainalan
#20 Posted : 09 June 2010 00:03:19

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As much as i love the banter
its getting a bit tired now. me I'm going to put a entry port in as i think it looks alot better with 1 if that's historically wrong so be it, if its right then that's great as well
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